Aligning Money with What Matters: Values-Centered Wealth Planning with Brenna Baucum

Josh St. Laurent: Welcome to the Wealth in Yourself Podcast, a show dedicated to helping you master the complex subject of money by simplifying it through stories and actionable advice. I'm Josh St. Laurent and this is Wealth in Yourself. Welcome to the Wealth in Yourself Podcast where we help people to design their ideal life and take control of their time and money. I'm your host Josh St. Laurent. Today we're joined by Brenna Bachum who owns and operates collective Wealth planning, a values centered financial planning and wealth management practice in Salem, Oregon. She specializes in tax-efficient planning for public employees, professors, and retirees. Brenna's work focuses on helping her clients, families align how they spend, save, and invest with what they care about. Brenna, welcome. Glad you're here. Brenna Baucum: Hi, thanks Josh. It's so nice to see you. Yeah, I've been looking forward to this. Josh St. Laurent: I want to kick us off with, for anyone listening who isn't familiar with you and your work, what do you want them to know about what you do? Brenna Baucum: Yeah, this will be your 10 that I've been in this industry hard to believe. So started off working for a independent RAA here in town, independent firm here in Salem. And then it's been a couple of years training financial advisors on kind of the human side of money and financial psychology, which I believe is where you and I met each other. And my practice, as you mentioned, I serve public employees and retirees and professors and our pension system here in Oregon is one of the most complex in the United States. It's the second most complex actually. So that's why I chose this as my niche. There's lots of people who need help navigating that. And what I love about working with folks through this transitional phase of work to retirement is that there's so many challenges and so many opportunities that come with planning that people don't often have the time to think about when they're just working away. So it really helps kind of set this up as one of the most rewarding chapters in life. Josh St. Laurent: Very exciting. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm always impressed by the niche that you went into because the Oregon State Plan is extremely complex. I have about this much experience with it. And wow, they don't make it easy. So how did you land there? You know, how did that come to be? Brenna Baucum: Yeah, I think I found the same thing. So I'm in Salem, the capital of Oregon. So there's a lot of state employees here. And so most states have a pension plan for nurses, one for police, one for fire. Teachers all have a different piece. And here in Oregon, it's one big pot. And so it kind of looks a little bit like tax code does where it's this patchwork where they have one system that they've continued to add various pieces onto to try to make it work. In my former experience and practice, I had a lot of person employees coming to me and saying, what does this mean? What are all these acronyms? IAP, OCSGP, what I don't know what to do with all of these. And I don't know what role they actually play when I'm trying to make sense of if and when I can retire. And so that to me was a really clear indicator. And then it's just like anything when you feel a little bit, when you can focus in on one area, then you are able to answer a lot more of those questions effectively. So and I love working with this demographic. I like people our age too. But I really like working with the planning challenges and opportunities when when people are facing that transition. It's it's really exciting and fun. Josh St. Laurent: Definitely. Yeah, one of the biggest transitions they'll probably ever have and there are financial lives. I'm curious about like you mentioned it in the beginning. You know, you were an advisor, then you went to go train advisors on the human side of money, Nyer back, you know, with your own firm. How did that time training advisors and kind of living, breathing the human side of money? How did that change you as an advisor and how you approach the conversations that you have? Brenna Baucum: Yeah, great question. I was so fortunate to have that time to really practice and hone that skill with the supportive environment that we were in. So I was able to build my practice utilizing kind of this core outline of life planning tools. Is what we call them in financial life planning in this arena for those that aren't familiar. And it allowed me to have both a qualitative and a quantitative element to each step of the financial planning process that I didn't have before. I think I had the the brass tax of what it took to be a relational advisor with people and have a good rapport and get to understand what they cared about. And but it wasn't until I had some more training and a framework to be able to say, okay, let's what are we really talking about here? How do we really get you an alignment and alignment not only with your financial resources, but also your time and your energy? How can we bring all of these things together so that yes, finances are the cornerstone of what we're working on together. But we can help to move the needle on all of these other pieces too and really increase life satisfaction, which is the ideal when you're working with client families. Josh St. Laurent: I know you feel the same way in the way you practice. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, I had a major career shift after 10 years and I'll call it corporate finance and the life planning structure and outline as you describe it was so eye opening for me and I would I refuse to do it any other way now. That has been so impactful for me and a lot of it was the your teachings and money quotient in that process. And so I know that a lot of the work you do is around attachment between money and how we earn it. Can you talk to that a little bit? Brenna Baucum: Yeah, I think that relationship is so interesting. And when I get to work with people who are five to 10 years from retirement, it seems like they're grappling with one of two things either just this extraordinary transition of losing a part of their identity when they retire or the reality of dipping into the pool of money that they so preciously have earned and saved for as income replacement. And most often it's both of those things and this is just such a huge shift to our routines and our identities and you said this earlier that retirement is one of the biggest transitions we can face and if we kind of zoom out and think a little bit about our transitions we go through in life right our identity shifts adolescence and we're growing up maybe educational journeys our career path if we decide to be in partnership or be married if we decide to have children midlife retirement aging and all of those my argument is that out of all of those changes there are no two that change and impact our identity as quickly as becoming a parent or retiring even though the lead up takes time for those things right one day my daughter was in my stomach and the next day she was out right and my identity totally shifted and I think it's the same with retirement one day you go to work and the next day you don't and that is true even if you are gliding out of that and it is very difficult to procrastinate on having a baby right but you can procrastinate for a long time about thinking about and planning for retirement it always seems like something that's on the horizon five to ten years away it's complex so people tend to put it off so I think it's really interesting to think about this big big shift that's so often people are saying I'm going to think about that later I'm going to talk about it later it's wild to me I really find it fascinating Josh St. Laurent: it is fascinating yeah and it's funny you use like the two words that jump out to me are our identity because I think every financial planner has experienced this sort of identity crisis almost where it's like well I have been you know in educator for 30 years and next week I won't be anymore and what does that look like and then the procrastination is absolutely real you know I think most planners have experienced that too where it's like I don't know what I'm retiring to and so maybe can you talk to how do you help people with that shift of well what is the new identity become what are you retiring to what is this ideal retirement you know and how do you make it exciting and something that they can look forward to yeah and there are a couple of ways to do it so like we talk about there's the the qualitative and the quantitative there's both of these elements to talk through we can talk about the financial transitions in a minute but in terms of kind of the qualitative side of your life there's so much value that can come from reflecting on what it is that you value which has likely shifted quite a bit in over a career so most often people are spending their time working away and and having values of course and having things that are priorities but those shift and transition so retirement offers up this really great opportunity to step back and say what do I care about now and how do I want to empower my resources to support that whether it's family whether it's your church whether it's your whatever it is I think that we don't feel like we have very much time when we're working to have that time of reflection and it's one of the things that I love and I know you do too about our roles is to be able to walk alongside people and say hey let's slow this process down a little and not just jump from A to B but take some time to think through talk through what does life look like there the mental dress rehearsals I think we talked about that a bit during our time together of let's try this on what is it going to be like well my neighbor has a boat he's retired should I get a boat my supposed to get a boat is that a thing I'm supposed to do and instead of going out buying a boat maybe you rent a boat or maybe you go on a ride with him and see if you like it so those kind of bite-size ways to ease into retirement and figuring out what it is that's your unique measuring stick as opposed to what the Jones is are doing I think it's such an important point and when I think of my timeline as an advisor right and I think back to my early days I had really bought into this visual that we all see you know on the Super Bowl commercials for the big finance firms the old couples you know walking on the beach hand in hand or you know in the rocking chair reading the newspaper but so very few people that I talk to anyway that's not their reality right a lot of people want to keep working they want to have some sort of purpose there are so many major changes maybe they want to relocate to be closer to kids or grandkids so how do you incorporate all these life aspects because to your point you know I spent many years only focusing on the quantitative and I was missing so much of the big picture and it really does a disservice to people so how do you incorporate some of that vision of their life and what is going to be ideal for them into the plan yeah I think the that self-reflection is kind of step one right of what do we care about what where priorities and then the second step of what to do with that is by analyzing what do I do with this information this reflection is there alignment or is there something that needs to shift because I can do that I have a choice of whether or not I want to keep doing this versus that so it's second is kind of this empowerment for client families of saying like all right let's make some shifts and of course there's all sorts of ways in which to incorporate not only how the finances impact the financial plan but also your family and I'm doing this because it's the wheel of life right that's a tool that you and I both get to use with our clients of what is your level of satisfaction today client with your leisure life for example and if they say well it's like a five out of ten what does a ten look like and then we start to talk through what a ten looks like and sometimes that ten has financial tethers that we can help incorporate into the plan and we can say oh yeah let's earmark this amount of money for that and and move the needle this way and other times it doesn't and either way it's useful for the client oftentimes they will say oh just talking about this is helpful because money is still so taboo that our client families don't often have an outlet to have a discussion about some of these things they don't necessarily want to do it with friends or family in many cases so that means to have a space where you can come together and say yeah I'm thinking about it be real honest I'm thinking about this I'm thinking about that having a thought partner I think is really the role that we get to play that makes this job so rewarding and can make it so powerful for clients Josh St. Laurent: it's so rewarding and it's funny that you bring up the wheel of life like I'd be curious to get your perspective here I'm always fascinated by the energy that comes along with going through the wheel of life I get a lot of feedback of wow you know look how much we can move the needle and how very little money it takes because you know sometimes it's not teller to money at all sometimes it is and it's a nominal amount of money you know to make this thing happen I think a lot of people have this perception that they have to be multi-millionaires to have this amazing retirement and for most people it's just really not the case and so I'm just curious do you find the same thing you know when taking people through exercises like that and when they sort of have this light bulb moment of oh wow you know I already have the income really you know I just need to kind of design this in a way that suits me Brenna Baucum: absolutely and so often it just tends to be the client families I work with tend to be like well I don't know if I should or can do that as much and sometimes it's the way we're raised and the lessons we learn about money growing up that we don't feel like we can or should outsource some of the stuff that doesn't bring us joy even if the numbers work so what I like about these conversations is that it opens that are not only a yeah you can pay some one five hundred dollars a month to do yard maintenance or whatever it is the client probably logically knows that if that's the case for their financial situation but to have a conversation about well and what would you do with that time if you were not mowing your lawn and picking up all the debris and that kind of thing then they start to kind of focus in on the next what they're looking forward to which makes that five hundred dollar expense feel like it's empowering them to again bring their life into alignment as opposed to the drudgery and that's where that when we get down to that that's where we're actually getting our dollars to work for us and align and empower us Josh St. Laurent: it's so true and it's hard to quantify in conversations with clients it's very easy to say well we're going to do this tax maneuver we're going to change us investments and you know the fee saved as x but you know when you get your life in alignment as you say you know it's hard to quantify that it's like wow I've opened up this many hours in my life and now I'm spending time with the people that I want to spend time with them doing the activities I want to do you know is there a dollar savings there maybe not directly but it's hard to put a price on what that means you know to people to to be living their authentic life Brenna Baucum: yeah it's what makes it a little challenging for us to be able to describe all of the ways in which a CFP can help you move the needle in your financial life it's really it's multifaceted and she and different for everybody yet is what want to transition a little bit you actually touched upon it earlier about fast and slow identity shifts over our lifetime can you kind of expand upon that because I think that's really interesting too Josh St. Laurent: yeah I think the shift to retirement piece when I think about that transition and there's there's all of these anxieties that come with it in part because it is both fast and slow and I kind of see three trends that tend to fall together within financial anxiety it's the mindset financial mindset it's a fear of running out of money and it's a loss of control or a feeling of a loss of control and so when we think about the mindset shift changes that someone transitioning to retirement needs to do what they've done their entire life doesn't work anymore right so they they have their nose has been up to the grindstone they've been building and growing assets and saving for the future and now the future is here right and they've probably become comfortable seeing this certain balance on an investment report or in a bank account and maybe subconsciously there's this net worth and self-worth connection happening that they may not be aware of and you know there's all sorts of studies and science around behavioral biases and anchoring and what happens when we do that and so the mindset needs to shift from saving to spending and managing wealth that's kind of one of those anxieties the other is the fear of running out of money and it is natural for us to build our money in silos right we have a 401k over here we have a taxable account over here the savings account here a 529 that all of these different things that's naturally and organically how our lives grow and it's very very hard to feel any level of confidence and much less make a mindset shift around spending to managing until you understand how all those pieces fit together and again that's that's a big piece of the work that we get to do with our client families every day is show how the puzzle comes together so there's some solutions to it too right the loss of control feeling as arguably one of the biggest pieces that client families face in this transition because when we stop saving we stop working that means we have to shift to relying on our investment portfolios or social security or pension income or whatever it is and that can be a really difficult change for people who are empowered by the financial aspect of their work and sometimes this shows up with concerns about market volatility or whether or not social security is going to be solvent or a pension is still going to be around and it's hard to interest financial decisions to either market forces or a financial professional and again we talked a little bit about some of the the loss of social networks and the purpose and the structure today's that a job provides to somebody so all of this to say have empathy for people facing this big transition there's a lot to traverse and and some things to mourn a little bit as as you make that shift no matter how fast or slow it comes Brenna Baucum: yeah I like that that verbiage that you use like it is a mourning in a way you know it's a whole new chapter of life and I remember a presentation that you did I had sort of this light bulb moment in and shifted the way that I talked to clients for 10 years I was trained you know maximize maximize and I'll use some financial planner jargon here but you know we we're sort of taught in terms of the accumulation phase and the distribution phase and for me it was always maximize everything at all costs be really conservative in this distribution phase in retirement you know and if they pass away with a million dollars well well good they didn't run out of money but the reality is if they didn't want to leave that million dollars to someone well that's a million dollars that was you know unused that could have been used to travel the world or live closer to grandkids or have that beach house or whatever it is that that really would have been meaningful to them and so sort of shift to my perspective in a way that you know I sort of failed as the advisor I failed them when that money could have been you know better spanned and so I've shifted the conversation now to talk more about well what is it that you want to leave for a legacy if at all you know and it's been surprising to find a lot of clients are like I want to bounce the last check you know like I want to maximize that my kids are fine you know like I want to go travel I want to do you know I want to do these things so I really like that perspective that you have Brenna Baucum: yeah and I think it's I had one client a family in our world the money carlo is sort of this like percentage just obviously you know Josh but I'm just sharing percentage of probability of success meaning you will have money at the end of your life that that's how that measurement defines success which to your point is not success to everyone I had one client who actually wanted me to add another spending lever in their financial plan and we titled it die was zero and so every year we come in and we shift that that lever around a little and say well how much more can we spend and what does that look like and I think that rarely is there a year where they ask for a distribution of that size right and but I think having that information empowers them to be able to say oh yeah I'm I want to be this gifting for Christmas or I want to support this organization to this extent they have the information and the confidence that they can do that Josh St. Laurent: yeah I think this goes back again to things that are hard to measure or quantify I had Deborah Goldstein on last week and we're talking about philanthropy and what a difference it makes in people's happiness and fulfillment in their own lives and that's another aspect of it I think that gets overlooked you know I was always taught that this was sort of the 1% of the conversation philanthropy and giving and maybe cherry on the top and I think the reality is for a lot of people especially retirees you know it's a big part of what they're thinking about whether it's their kids or alma mater or the environment or what have you but giving back you know it really enhances their retirement and gives them a sense of purpose so I think that's really cool and important to be talking about with retirees Brenna Baucum: yeah and letting them lead the conversation in a lot of ways and and kind of bringing up oh if you thought about it this way have you looked at it from this angle I think that's the that's where I see that being so beneficial and sometimes it it looks like traditional charitable gifting and other times it looks really different and I think giving the client permission to say however it looks to you is the right way I hear a lot of people say I should be giving more I should be doing this and I'm always careful to encourage people not to shoot it on themselves Josh St. Laurent: yeah yeah it's important there's a lot of misinformation out there and a lot of people telling you you know how it should be but really it's up to it's up to them as a client even even us I think of us as sort of stewards or guides or coaches you know we're not the end all be all either we're there to kind of offer ideas and guidance but ultimately it's their life and they should be able to design it in a way that's meaningful to them so I wanted to segue to I know you talk about like transitioning to retirement the four kind of rich opportunities to make the most out of it could you expand upon those Brenna Baucum: yeah I think they're you know we talked a little bit about this before about kind of the first step being being self-reflection and figuring out what it is that are your priorities what are your values and to what we were just talking about what kind of legacy are you building because you're building one whether you're trying to or not it gets important to remember and to think through and then what do you do with that self-reflection so do you are you living in a way that's elevating those priorities and that those values are you in alignment are you happy with that legacy and if not you have a choice awareness step one and then you get to choose what to do with that awareness so those first two steps are really the ones that I think we often do with our client families and sometimes things come into focus and are clear enough with those two steps that the client says yes this is making sense this looks like me and what I care about I'm ready to move forward and other times people want to dig more deeply so there's you know opportunities for personal growth and I've seen people decide to pick up some some books and some spiritual practices or start therapy or those kind of things to continue that deepening so that's kind of the third optional step for some and then the fourth and because it's highest peak might be that there's a transformation that occurs for people and it's not to say that everybody needs a transformation I don't think everybody has a scrooge story right that's like 180 how they live their lives and and spend their resources but instead it might be this shift from a life of complacency to a life of contentment that's a phrase I use a lot with client families of how do we make sure we're because it's a fine line between those two things or it can be anyway when we're talking about finances and another line I like to think through in this phase when people are building what they want their ideal retirement to be like is let's make sure we are living in wisdom and thriving in grace in this last 30% of life where aging my grandma used to say aging is not for babies it's not it's not easy it's really really hard so if we can hold up kind of this living in wisdom thriving in grace thing as our litmus test for success that feels like a pretty good measure Josh St. Laurent: you stick I really like that perspective yeah aging is not for babies now it's not for babies that's what my brother always said so I think that's a perfect transition to like values based investing I know that it is a the deepest of rabbit holes right and we could talk for hours about it and there's some people who build our entire practices and teams around values based investing but how does that play a part in everything that we've been talking about today and really like living your ideal life Brenna Baucum: I think there there are just like we talked about multiple ways and multiple resources types of resources to use money time and energy each one of those has an extra layer you can go into and think through and with money we talked about charitable and then there's also the ways in which it's invested the ways in which it's working for change in the world or not and I meet with a lot of client families who say I want to do what's right which is very subjective and I also need to make sure that my level of participation isn't going to impact my returns right like I want to do what's right but I also don't want to sacrifice too much I think it's a common view and I also think it's a little bit gravefully I think it's a little bit outdated because now you know 10 years ago 15 years ago socially responsible investing in those types of things used to be very expensive the internal expenses of those types of investments used to be quite high and it was also relatively new there weren't a ton of companies investing in values and you know what are the three environmental social and governance now not socially responsible investing used to be SRI now ESG because our industry loves acronyms and so now there are a lot of companies using ESG protocols as litmus tests for as they build out boards with equal representation on those boards both diversity and gender diversity and racial diversity and what it's doing in the world what the companies are doing in the world are they changing are they investing in solar wind power alternative energies those kind of things so there's all sorts of ways now for investors to explore a little bit more deeply without the sacrifice of performance that it used to be there may still be a variance right but not nearly what it used to be because there are so many more organizations and companies on the scene moving in that direction I wouldn't be surprised I think over our careers in this industry we'll see so much more change in this it's really inspiring to see so many people doing doing that hard work that research to be able to empower that part of an investor's portfolio Josh St. Laurent: I think you're spot on I I love that it's moving in that direction I wanted to keep moving in that direction I'm excited for for what's to come and maybe this is me backpettling a little bit but I was just thinking you were just mentioning before like as people go through this transition into retirement some of the other professionals they meet with that can actually enhance what they're doing with a financial life planner so you mentioned therapy maybe spiritual advisor maybe coach like are there other professionals that you maybe refer to or you know just suggest other people go seek out for themselves that can just really you know stack on top of what they're doing with a financial life planner to really just enhance that process Brenna Baucum: yeah I think you you probably are of this same mindset given our similar history and this profession is there used to be kind of the three three stools that the stool with three legs and we used to have the CFP the state planning attorney and the CPA and I still think most client families that I know of who are happy and are spending more time than they want to be thinking about or worrying about their money have those three professionals and now there's all of these other opportunities that are really unique to individuals and so I make it a common practice to recommend to at least provide resources to people about financial therapists I know you had Nate Astel on your podcast before he's lovely person to make sure that people have that opportunity because I only get a couple of hours with them right through a year or through our planning work together or I don't see them often enough to know if that's really I might have a sense but that can really be a powerful resource for people that they may or may not need now maybe later that kind of thing so that Deborah Goldstein also in terms of philanthropic advisor so those types of conversations that are helping to deepen the unique pieces of what it is someone needs so those are the two most common is let's make sure you have resources for a financial therapist that's not strange or wrong that's normal a lot of people benefit from that how do we deepen this conversation and bring in a thought partner with us to sit down with on gifting but those are probably the two biggest ones Josh St. Laurent: you nailed them even before I said them in terms of other resources and professionals to partner with and I love that that's a great part of our job too is kind of playing quarterback for people in that way Brenna Baucum: yeah absolutely it's incredible how wide and how deep financial planning can go I always say that the more I learn about finance the more I realize how much I don't know you know and there's so many fields like that but I think I would I would have told you early in my career that my pursuit of education was to sort of do it all and now I realize just how silly that is and it's really about finding these professionals you know who are experts in that one thing and you can sort of lean on them be the quarterback for the client to say hey I know enough to be dangerous about what you're talking about but I know the best person for you to talk to you to kind of move this forward and make meaningful progress like let's go together to this meeting because I also want to be a part of this and to learn and to because it's so interesting and most of the professionals are so welcoming to having that be a collaborative experience not the therapy probably but the other pieces for sure Josh St. Laurent: definitely definitely definitely so I want to transition to kind of the big three the three that I ask everyone these are more personal to you and question number one is what does living a wealthy life look like for you? Brenna Baucum: I think it means connection with other people so that would be definitely one of my one of my core values is connection and growth is the other one so connecting and building communities and continuing to grow my brain and learn and laughter too I don't think we laugh enough as adults so it's I think having those three core elements are important that'd be wealthy life for me. Josh St. Laurent: I love that if you could give one message to someone working to gain financial freedom who isn't there yet what would it be? Brenna Baucum: It would be that your whatever it is that you're facing is unlikely that it hasn't been faced before right whatever opportunity or challenges is in front of you someone else has probably traveled that road and that it is not the the sexy stuff that's going to get you to your goals it's the small steps repeated over and over again I'm a big fan of James Clear and he has this I'm trying to remember it exactly is saying you don't rise to the what is it you don't rise to the level of your goals you fall to the level of your systems so create solid systems that would be my advice whether that's automatically increasing your 401k when you get a pay increase or hiring a CFP to keep you on track creating those systems to support incremental growth toward your definition of a wealthy life to use your terms. Josh St. Laurent: I love that you went there and building the systems out so I'm going to totally just sidetrack now so for someone you know who is like and this happens a lot I think in first or second meetings where people are kind of stock all say or frustrated or on the hamster wheel or whatever language you want to use right there at this point in their life where they are hiring someone to get over this hurdle that they just haven't been able to figure out for themselves how does mentorship or finding someone who has walked that path like how does that fit in I know it's been transformational in my own life like I always say like there's no way I would have got to where I am without finding people way smarter than me way better than me at what they do and just spending time with them so how does that fit into like how you work with clients and the people who are stocking or sort of woe is me you know this is only happening to me Brenna Baucum: do you suggest they go seek out mentorship or someone who has been there before I do and in part that goes back to my value of connection I think that I think connecting with other human beings is the reason we are here that's the reason we're on this planet and so there is so much value from learning from people who have been where you've been and I think you and I in our journeys to start our own practices and go through that had been very fortunate to meet a number of advisors so that that had been our focus in area and for client families who are thinking through well what I don't know if I'm ever going to get past this point it's not uncommon to have that conversation go in a direction of is there anyone you can identify in your life that you think has done this well that is live in a life that you like that you think that's how I want to be that's where I want to be and usually there is a person that you can think through or think of and that is true you know we're kind of talking about this in form of like what would you tell someone who's not financially independent yet but that's true even if you are one of the retirees we were just talking about right you identify somebody who you think is doing retirement well and seems happy take them out to lunch take them out to lunch and bend their ear talk to them about what set up some of those goals what are some of the motivators behind it see if there's any overlap again it's not that they have a boat you want a boat just getting to the core of that a little bit and I think hearing from people who have been there always makes that journey a bit easier Josh St. Laurent: yeah I love love that idea always yes hardest question of the day if you only had a thousand dollars and we're starting over what would be the first thing you would do with that money? Brenna Baucum: yeah I listened to some other people's answers on your podcast because I thought I wonder what starting over win and I heard pretty much everyone ask you that and then you said something like maybe like after college and if I had a thousand dollars and I was starting over I think I would hire someone to tell me what to do with it I really do see the value every day and what CFP's do to help their client families figure out the right direction and feel the level of confidence that they made the right choice right otherwise you're sort of himming and hawing did I do it right or maybe I should have done this so sitting down with someone let's say in that after college scenario to help maximize my employee benefits and come up with some of those systems that we were just talking about right budgeting saving for a house paying off student loans planning for kids or for retirement all of that stuff needs a plan I think and I say this often everybody can benefit from a plan whether you have $500 or $5 million a plan can be very very helpful so certainly a thousand dollars falls in that range too of getting some systems in place that you can rely on that are going to feed you for the future Josh St. Laurent: I so agree with that answer like I've sort of adopted this word of a roadmap and it's certainly not original to me but I have been thinking about this a lot over the last year of like the value that we provide and I think a lot of it comes down to the roadmap and the accountability that we give people just to stay on track of you know hey we've talked a lot about your ideal life we're building you a roadmap to get there let's you know help you stay on track with that and I think back to my 20s and how fiercely independent I was and I word as a badge of honor and just how wrong I was to not have the you know the roadmap and no accountability and just trying to figure it all out of my own and how much slower the journey probably went because of that Brenna Baucum: yeah and I think it you know when I think about a roadmap too I like that visual but it also I also picture like a huge map with an x here and a dot here you are here and then it's this tiny line sort of doing it so it's that but it's also like member map quest I don't know if anybody remembers the left to remember map quest and every single step is printed out for you like then turn left on this road and then turn right on this road that if I had to like quantify what a financial plan is it's both the big map and the step by step and that's the piece I think those are the systems the map is one thing those are the systems that you need to move meaningfully continually in the right direction Josh St. Laurent: definitely and I think something that I've realized as a planner is there's a lot of value in establishing that relationship because life happens and you will take a detour from your plan something will happen someone will pass away you will get injured you'll have a child or whatever it is I think there's a lot of value to say okay you know me and my life plan intimately this just happened I'm on a detour we got to redo the road map and to have someone side by side with you and not go out that alone I think there's a tremendous amount of value and it's hard to quantify Brenna Baucum: yeah you know we never have anybody at least I don't have anybody call me because they're bored everybody calls me because they're at one of those life detours and so to your point if you can and walking through a detour like that there's a really great way to get to know somebody and then to continue to have that relationship with folks over time is and it celebrate birthdays and anniversaries and all that it's just oh it's what makes this so lovely such it's such a great career. Josh St. Laurent: Very true so for listeners who want to connect with you like we'll put all the show notes all the links in the show notes of course but what is your preferred place for people to go and connect with you? Brenna Baucum: Yeah I post semi-regularly to LinkedIn and have company pages collected while planning both on LinkedIn and on Facebook those are the only two social speaking of Mapquests those are the only two social media things I can figure out at this point in my life. I've been called a geriatric millennial before and I'm really showing it right now but those are the two good places I post to my blog pretty regularly video just educational pieces for folks to take wherever they are in their journey videos and written stuff and have a newsletter that goes out once a month so lovely to connect with anybody that would find value and that I would welcome you to come on over. Josh St. Laurent: Yes definitely we'll link those below and I would encourage everybody I love the newsletter personally so is there anything that I haven't asked you anything you're like Josh why did we skip over that one thing like I want to talk about it anything that you're just itching to cover? Brenna Baucum: Well I think the maybe one piece that is is probably its own podcast for part two for us someday you know we talked a lot about the technical transitions that people go through when they're thinking through retirement we didn't talk about how fraught the concept of retirement can be for some people we touched on it a little but that transition away particularly if it's abrupt from full-time work to no work is an emotionally physically maybe unrealistic for some people and so I think it's really important to I was just listening to a podcast and geared toward advisors like us about this and they were talking about how maybe instead of full stop here's where you are it's here's what life looks like if you stop contributing to retirement accounts and you just do something to pay your bills so you're not touching your retirement accounts but you're also not contributing to them that gives some financial freedom and flexibility in transitional years especially if people are itching to get out of work by the time they're 60 that's still a lot of life left to live and so if instead we can reframe the conversation I really put that on all advisors and us included to say well yes and you know you can do this and it's important for us to think through and collaborate about what does it look like how are you spending your time I think that's important for people to think through I think it was Carl Richards it says retirement is dumb the concept of retirement is dumb I think there's something to be said for planning for how you're going to spend your time and making sure it's fulfilling and purposeful Josh St. Laurent: 100% agree yeah I'm fascinated by that I could talk to you about that all day long I've got Derek Aegan on the podcast in a week or two and so I'm going to pick his brain about exactly that Brenna Baucum: oh I can't wait to listen for sure Josh St. Laurent: well I think that's a perfect place to wrap so I just wanted to say thank you for being here this has been amazing and fun Brenna Baucum: thank you Josh is so great to see you and give my best to Amanda and thanks for having me on Josh St. Laurent: absolutely this has been the Wealth in Yourself podcast where we help people to design their ideal life and take control of their time and money our guest today was Brenna Bachum we'll see you next weekend thanks for listening the Wealth in Yourself podcast is hosted by me Josh St. Loren and edited and produced by Ray Haycraft to learn more about how to make your money work for you visit us at www.WealthInYourself.com and connect with us on all social media at Wealth in Yourself this podcast is educational in nature and is not meant to be investment advice please do not construe anything said to be advice and the opinions of the guests may or may not represent the opinions of Wealth in Yourself this podcast and the information presented are separate from my employment at Golden Gate University still they are part of my mission to make no cost financial knowledge more accessible if you like to show please take a moment to leave us a review we read all of your feedback and we want to make sure we cover the topics that matter most if you have a specific subject you'd like us to explore or a guest you'd love to hear interviewed don't hesitate to shoot us a direct message and as always thanks for listening